After a VERY long pause, welcome to the final PART IX of the interview, which Michel Friedman had for the German “Vanity Fair” with Horst Mahler in 2007. The interview is a meeting of a “liberal” Jew with a defender of traditional German values. I am posting it in portions as the whole text is 89 pages long (!) The original is HERE
PART IX
VF Did she (your mother) approve of your commitment in the Red Army Faction?
H.M. Ultimately, I think she did.
VF And the Young Socialists, SDS and SPD?
H.M. That was a long process, and she has also expressed her views about it, and Kunzelmann has at her grave summarized her life. At the end she saw also Lenin as a great revolutionary, just as I have seen him at that time, as a great revolutionary.
M.F. Today you don’t?
H.M. Lenin was a great historical figure. He believed he was making a revolution, but it was something else that he has done. But that is always the lot of great figures.
M.F. But in the years when you were in the SPD, the SPD has indeed, already in the 50s and 60s, understood itself as the counter-response against Hitler. It has even been said “We Social Democrats have gone to the concentration camps because of Hitler” What kind of consciousness did you actually have at that time? Or were you still a victim of Jewish propaganda and your guilt?
H.M. I have said it very clearly in my conversation with Baum, which was then published as a book: I believed these propaganda lies against the German Reich; Hitler was for me a poisonous thorn in the flesh of the German people, and we wanted to get rid of it.
M.F. When you have realized that … I have … I am sorry, that occurred to me only now, I have not asked you about it before. When have you understood and was the key event that made you feel that everything is propaganda and you have been burdened with guilt as a German? When have you gone from A to B? What was it, and when was it exactly? What was the key moment?
H.M. There were two. First, on the occasion of my speech on the 70th birthday of Rohrmoser. At that time I still believed in the so-called Holocaust and said: “And if it, as some think, has not happened, it would have to be invented to bring the intellectual, historical dispute to the high level, where it belongs.” Then Frank Rennick came up to me, when I have agreed to defend the NPD, to ask me to defend him against the charge of having denied the Holocaust. Then I said: “Yes, I’ll do it.” And I defended him. This was the first indictment, which was brought against me, because I had made applications for evidence in the process.
M.F. When was it?
H.M. 2002 or so. The case is years old, and is still not decided. And then I had to take a look at the facts of the so-called …
M.F. So in 2002 you had to break from the old to the new consciousness …
H.M. Yes. After this I no longer believed in it, after having dealt with the evidence which the so called revisionists gathered. I realized that this was a huge propaganda lie. After this I was free. I have found out that it was done according to the same blueprint which was used in Russia after the pogrom in Kishinev in 1903. Solzhenitsyn has described it meticulously.
M.F. But you were active in the NPD and with the Nazis already in the late 1990-s.
H.M. There you’re wrong.
M.F. Really? You became a member of the NPD in 2000.
H.M. It was after the petition to ban the party was made.
M.F. Good, but you’ve just said it was in 2002.
H.M. But you have just said something about the 90′s which I can’t recognize.
M.F. Yes, yes. You demonstrated with extreme right against foreigners and double citizenship. With right-wing extremists, NPD and the Republicans.
H.M. Yeah, I can’t see any problem at all in this. I have decided to be available for the party as a lawyer, as other more famous lawyers …
M.F. No, no, then you were already on your way politically. I just want to know when was the crucial moment?
H.M. No, no, no. I then decided to represent the party as a lawyer, and I always say, it was then connected with a political commitment. And I then joined the party … and then I have traveled and lectured, met with people and so on.
M.F. And what was the reason you said: “Auschwitz is a lie”?
H.M. That was precisely the experience of the Rennick process. At that time I first came into contact with the evidence, and then I knew this (Holocaust) cannot be true. And it is not true.
M.F. So there were no crematoria?
H.M. Well, of course, there were crematoria. People have died in a concentration camp in a number that was exceptionally high. And they could not be interred because it was a swampy terrain. That’s all.
M.F. But there was no systematic extermination with gas?
H.M. No.
M.F. Zyklon B, these are all fairy tales?
H.M. No, no, Zyklon B is not an invention; it has been used in all armies of the world before the discovery of DDT for disinfestation of clothing.
M.F. But the Jews were not killed with it?
H.M. No. (laughs) Of course not.
M.F. Of course not.
H.M. And I am far away from seeing the Jews as lice, which could be killed with something like that.
VF Why did the RAF broke with you?
H.M. It became public when Monika Berberich announced the exclusion before the trial. But the separation from the RAF was a long process. I criticized things internally. For example the use of a bomb in Springer skyscraper in Hamburg. And that has not exactly brought me affection within the RAF, although it has now came out that Ulrike Meinhof was not finished off because she was responsible.
VF For the attack in Hamburg?
H.M. Yes. And then I said, because of my readings in prison: This violence has the opposite effect, so you have to abandon it, that’s a wrong way.
VF And this is the …
H.M.
And, of course, this led to the exclusion.
VF Do you think that Andreas Baader and Ulrike Meinhof would have been on your side today, had they survived?
H.M. Certainly Ulrike Meinhof.
VF Why?
H.M. Because she was a more thoughtful person and would have certainly opened herself to these thoughts. She had no problems with investigating all points of view and finding out where the truth is. Andreas Baader was a very complex personality; it’s difficult to classify him. He had very positive aspects about him which I admired. But there were also things I had problems with. And where he would be today, I do not know.
VF Were you enemies before you went to jail? Have you become enemies, you and Andreas Baader?
H.M. No. No, no. Not at all.
M.F. What do you think of Otto Schily with whom you were previously on the same side?
H.M. I think I can see in Schily a personality change of a negative kind. This shows on his face. As long as I knew him, I respected it. A man of integrity. We had some differences, but it was not decisive. And he was loyal.
M.F. To whom?
H.M. To me, to all whom he represented. And I give him high credit for this. Christian Ströbele too.
M.F. But he has signed the request for a ban on the NPD.
H.M. I have just said, that I see a change of personality in him.
M.F. In which direction?
H.M. Well, he has become a cynic, a Fouché. Keeping the power, safety for the power, for the established power, not for the fellow Germans. And he has given totally up to this system.
M.F. Also a vassal of Jewry?
H.M. Yes, of course.
M.F. You’ve been a long time with Ströbele.
H.M. Yes.
M.F. How do you assess it?
H.M. He will probably oppose, but I consider him a friend and a man of absolute integrity.
M.F. But you have no contacts? Or have you contacts?
H.M. No, we have no contact. He was in my practice, and we got to know each other well. He was a very diligent worker. We addressed one another by Sie. This was a matter of mutual respect. Today he has some ideas that I criticize vehemently. He favors multi-ethnic mixing, for one. But that does not prevent me from respecting him as a person. He is consistent in a certain way.
M.F. Is he a vassal of Jewry?
H.M. Certainly not consciously. He has had his problems with Israel.
M.F. Yes, but the existence of Israel. He fights the right-wing extremists like crazy.
H.M. What I have just said about him is due to my experience with him: He believes in what he says. And inasmuch he is not a vassal in the subjective sense. What he does goes in this direction, but he does not do it consciously.
M.F. Gerhard Schröder? In the most difficult time he got you readmitted to the bar.
H.M. Yeah, well, so what? You are asking me how I judge him?
M.F. Yes.
H.M. He is a man who is very dependent on what people think and say about him. He is guided by the outside influences. And this may conceal his personality core that might perhaps be viewed positively. The problem is his obsession to be liked by the audience, to sell himself well on the TV. In this respect he is no longer free.
M.F. Is he a vassal of world Jewry?
H.M. Yes. He certainly was. Whether he is now, I don’t know.
M.F. What about Angela Merkel? I mean, she comes from the East, she has a completely different socialization, has been in the Federal Republic for 17 years. How do you assess her?
H.M. Anyone who has the position of a Chancellor, I am sure about it, will be instructed by those who have conquered Germany, what aims today’s politics in the Federal Republic has to follow, namely the safeguarding and further enforcement of the war aims. And they will say to him or her: You can choose either you allow the German people – they will not say it directly, but will let it be understood – the gradual dissolution in Europe, then everything is wonderful, the people are doing fine, what more can they want? Or you decide to go the way of the revival of the German Reich, and then we are at war. So they have to decide. And they decide, and in this way they become conscious vassals.
VF Excuse me, Hr Mahler, this is a spontaneous question, but could it not be the case that most people are no longer interested in the German Reich? Neither those you refer to as vassals, nor those, to whom you refer as foreign masters?
H.M. Let me put it bluntly: Adolf Hitler, as he is represented today, is rejected by most people. Just as the German Reich is rejected by most people. But they reject it because of deception. We live in the age of deception, and that is what is crucial.
VF Maybe it has become irrelevant.
H.M. No, no, not at all, on the contrary. All our freedom depends on it, and our lives will ultimately depend on it. And that is so easy to explain. When you say, this is the devil, the people will believe it, and they say, for God’s sake, go away. And of course, here is the moment when we set in and say: No, it’s a lie.
S.S. The good is never irrelevant. For the Germans, the good is never irrelevant.
M.F. What is the good?
H.M. Liberty, being independent …
S.S. What the German Reich always aspired to.
M.F. What has the German Reich always aspired to?
S.S. The good.
H.M. The breaking of interest slavery, breaking of the Jewish monopoly of opinion, the representation of the Jewish spirit as negation of the German …
M.F. Yes, but those are all negative definitions. I would like to know positively what is the good? What you are describing to me, is the evil in your language. What is the good?
H.M. I assume that you that you think, that you want the good. Only what is good for you, is something different.
M.F. No, I’ve got it. But she was about to say it, then you came in with your four points about what you want to break, and those are always the Jews. Okay. I’m simply interested in, what your own positive ideas of good are, apart from your opposition to Judaism. What is it?
S.S. The good can only unfold when we prevent the evil from suppressing it.
M.F. But how do you stop people like me? I live, I breathe, and I will continue to do and say what I want. And the others, the foreigners too. How do you stop me?
S.S. The truth will stop you. When people recognize what you are, you will lose your power.
M.F. I’ve got it.
H.M. You know the German fairy tale of Rumpelstiltskin. When one calls you by your name …
S.S. And everyone knows, Hr Friedman, everyone knows what you are and who you are and what you say.
M.F. Okay. Everyone.
S.S. Hr Friedman, everyone knows it. No matter which side he’s on. Everyone knows it.
M.F. Well, I would never have imagined. Thank you, I would never have imagined that …
S.S. No matter which side he’s on, everyone knows.
M.F. That’s incredible, I mean, I would have never thought. Really?
S.S. So this conversation gave you something, after all.
M.F. Wow! My God, my God …
S.S. It has also given me something, Mr. Friedman, because now I have my doubts that the Jews have so much power. Because, you said, you have …
M.F. Yes? (laughs)
S.S. And you know why, Mr. Friedman? Because you … your visits to teen prostitutes …
M.F. Yes, everybody knows it.
S.S. … would have not be so widely known.
M.F. Hardly anything is more widely known. But you know, at least I have not committed a robbery and murder and commit a robbery, and would never kill people. But I will come back to one question: Who is Ahmadinejad for you?
H.M. He is president of the religious state and republic of Iran.
M.F. I studied history and social sciences too.
H.M. And he is the first statesman of this format to have the courage to say that the Holocaust was a myth and that Israel must disappear from the map.
M.F. You support both?
H.M. Absolutely.
M.F. He also says that Israel will be destroyed with military means, if necessary.
H.M. Did he say it?
M.F. Yes.
H.M. When, where, please?
M.F. He has said it x times. I can’t give you a concrete quote.
H.M. I’ll tell you this: Israel is a predatory entity, not a state. You have grabbed a territory that does not belong to you.
M.F. Not “you”, I am not Israel, I am a German citizen. Just like you.
H.M. I understand.
M.F. Does it hurt you?
H.M. No, Hr Friedman, it’s a mistake.
M.F. Does it hurt you?
H.M. You are not a German citizen, it’s an illusion.
M.F. Oh, so I am not a German citizen?
H.M. No, you are not.
M.F. Why not?
H.M. You were not born in Germany, you are not of German family, not of German blood. You have come to Germany and have here perhaps the pass of the Federal Republic of Germany – and that’s not the German state. The German citizenship can only be granted by the German Reich. Since the 23 …
M.F. So you are not a German citizen either?
H.M. Why, I have been born as a German.
VF Do you have a document that says you are a citizen of German Reich? Do you have (such) a passport?
H.M. I don’t need it.
M.F. But you have not been born in the German Reich either.
H.M. I have a certificate of birth.
M.F. Who knows, what blood you have.
H.M. It’s not about blood.
M.F. Then I don’t know who … Imagine, you have a Jewish grandfather.
H.M. Let me finish the thought. You could not become a German …
M.F. That would be bad, right? That would be bad if you had a Jewish grandfather? Would you be unhappy that there is something negative about you, if it turned out, you had a Jewish grandfather?
S.S. That’s speculation. Why should I …?
H.M. He is speculating about the German Reich. There is no greater speculation than the German Reich.
H.M. The German Reich is real.
S.S. It’s real.
M.F. Would it be a problem if it turned out that your grandfather or your grandmother were Jewish?
H.M. That’s silly. But I cannot feel anything negative about it. What determines my destiny is a fact that I am the son of a certain person who has that and that racial and ethnic characteristics. But I’ve already told you: Whatever I were, I would endeavor to realize what my job is, and act accordingly. And that is different in each case. As a Jew, I have another calling than as a German.
M.F. It means, that it’s unthinkable that there is a German Jew?
H.M. There are Jews who have German citizenship, gained under the Reich.
M.F. Those you have killed, OK.
H.M. Wait a minute. Who are the many Jews who have come and filed reparation claims, for the land which they had before?
M.F. They are not many. You have not killed all, right. One more question …
H.M. I emphatically deny …
M.F. … is there a German Jew?
H.M. … that what you insinuate here: The German Reich, did not systematically murder the Jews in that sense. Some Jews have been killed. Some were executed.
M.F. It’s enough.
H.M. Yes? OK.
M.F. How do you say goodbye? The way you do when you get in? Or what is the proper farewell? I mean, the entrance greeting I have noticed. How does a representative of the German Reich do it?
H.M. Have a good life.
M.F. Aha. In the past they screamed “Heil Hitler” all the time, right?
H.M. I don’t know.
M.F. Thank you.
H.M. Yes.
FINIS
